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Post by IceArceus on Nov 2, 2016 22:11:44 GMT
Well, that was, like, the last episode and we don't know how her character develops after that because there's no new material. I will keep assuming she kissed him until a scene is shown to prove otherwise. I don't mind at all if you disagree with me on this. I'm just stating it'll take more solid evidence to convince me she didn't. We can argue about this all day, but I still remain adamant that she didn't kiss Ash. I still don't think it's safe to make any assumptions about the series. But I will say there is equally as much evidence for a claim that Serena didn't kiss Ash at all because this scene is open to any interpretation. That scene doesn't constitute 'solid evidence' for a kiss. I'm not saying the scene itself is solid evidence though? At the moment I personally think it has stronger evidence, which is why it will take more solid evidence (i.e. evidence that is closer to being solid) to sway me the other way. While there isn't solid evidence for her kissing him, based on real life physics AND anime physics, and the scene itself the evidence for her NOT stumbling is pretty solid.
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Post by satohika on Nov 2, 2016 22:14:52 GMT
Is it that big of a deal if she kissed him tough? I mean maybe if Ash had blushed I would be like "Oh appearently amour is really close to canon, they are really going down that route" , but that didn't happen he just looked at her with googly eyes (wich can mean LOTS of things). I don't think we will never know what happened, unless of course, someone from the writing staff of the episode explains it... I don't think Serena did anything to make Amour more canon. Considering Ash feels bashful whenever he is asked to something romance-related like being taught to dance. This time he didn't have much of a reaction at all to indicate that he was kissed. If he were kissed, then we could tell based on an embarrassed, bashful reaction because I doubt he is that completely dense, he's probably has Dawn's similar romantic denseness.
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Post by satohika on Nov 2, 2016 22:17:01 GMT
We can argue about this all day, but I still remain adamant that she didn't kiss Ash. I still don't think it's safe to make any assumptions about the series. But I will say there is equally as much evidence for a claim that Serena didn't kiss Ash at all because this scene is open to any interpretation. That scene doesn't constitute 'solid evidence' for a kiss. I'm not saying the scene itself is solid evidence though? At the moment I personally think it has stronger evidence, which is why it will take more solid evidence (i.e. evidence that is closer to being solid) to sway me the other way. While there isn't solid evidence for her kissing him, based on real life physics AND anime physics, and the scene itself the evidence for her NOT stumbling is pretty solid. It's still open to interpretation at the end of the day so it's possible that she hesitated at the last second or just had the wrong timing. Anything could have happened, and there's no solid evidence to suggest that there was a kiss, just that Ash's and Serena's faces were close enough to each other in some way.
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Post by IceArceus on Nov 2, 2016 22:20:47 GMT
I'm not saying the scene itself is solid evidence though? At the moment I personally think it has stronger evidence, which is why it will take more solid evidence (i.e. evidence that is closer to being solid) to sway me the other way. While there isn't solid evidence for her kissing him, based on real life physics AND anime physics, and the scene itself the evidence for her NOT stumbling is pretty solid. It's still open to interpretation at the end of the day so it's possible that she hesitated at the last second or just had the wrong timing. Anything could have happened, and there's no solid evidence to suggest that there was a kiss, just that Ash's and Serena's faces were close enough to each other in some way. Indeed. Her stumbling is just one of the many scenarios within the realm of her not kissing him. I don't believe I've said any statements that disagree with what you just said in that paragraph.
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Johto Champion
Always... Your smile is with me!
Posts: 167
OTP: Pearlshipping - AshXDawn / SatoHika
Shipping Allegiance: Pearlshipping
MBTI: INTP
Badass Punchline: The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Post by Spartakos on Nov 2, 2016 22:46:22 GMT
Well since it was censored no one can say what really happened...I think that the writers let this one out to let people imagine of what happened...and yes the majority of amourshippers claim it was a direct kiss on lips...others say (like me) it was a kiss on cheek just like in the movies...and others that it wasn't a kiss and maybe a confession...
Anyway, the point is that it was censored for many understandable reasons. One that i think, is for let us have our imagination flow and not to piss off some viewers.
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Johto Champion
pearlshipping still lives in my head rent free
Posts: 147
Shipping Allegiance: Pearlshipping
Badass Punchline: As long as we have the desire, pearlshipping will always keep burning like a flame.
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Post by DawnForever101 on Nov 2, 2016 22:55:11 GMT
Lol, I think it did happen. The writers have shown kisses on the cheek before. I'm just glad that Ash didn't have that much of a reaction.
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Post by Unarmed Civilian/pokemongeof on Nov 3, 2016 1:10:10 GMT
Did not think this would spark such a back-and-forth conversation!
But all of your points are interesting. One side of me wants me to believe they did not kissed (the logistical and Pearlshipping side).
However, another side tells me there was a kiss on the forehead or cheek, and YET ANOTHER (the recently converted partial Amour) wants to believe a full kiss.
Maybe the next episode could reveal things. IDK but even if Serena did kiss ash on the lips, there was very little reaction. Serena's face indicates both that she did and that she didn't, and so does Ash's face. Both are incredibly ambiguous, which was intentionally done so people could still talk about it.
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Post by satohika on Nov 3, 2016 3:56:46 GMT
Well since it was censored no one can say what really happened...I think that the writers let this one out to let people imagine of what happened...and yes the majority of amourshippers claim it was a direct kiss on lips...others say (like me) it was a kiss on cheek just like in the movies...and others that it wasn't a kiss and maybe a confession... Anyway, the point is that it was censored for many understandable reasons. One that i think, is for let us have our imagination flow and not to piss off some viewers. I think the 'censoring' was done intentionally to spark theories as to what happened. Serena didn't confess her love for Ash in that scene before the 'kiss', so I doubt that Serena really intended to kiss Ash, even though Amourshippers wished it would happen. I mean Serena's conversation with Ash, if Amourshipping didn't exist or if that scene existed in an anime or a drama or whatever, people would assume it's platonic rather than anything to do with romance. I say Serena was close enough to Ash's face but chose not to kiss Ash, had the wrong timing or hesistated at the last second. Just because Clemont, Bonnie and Pikachu had these reactions doesn't mean that they actually saw it, what they saw is Serena getting close to Ash's face but not actually kissing because they couldn't see the sides of their faces to get a clearer picture as to what happened. Did not think this would spark such a back-and-forth conversation! But all of your points are interesting. One side of me wants me to believe they did not kissed (the logistical and Pearlshipping side). However, another side tells me there was a kiss on the forehead or cheek, and YET ANOTHER (the recently converted partial Amour) wants to believe a full kiss. Maybe the next episode could reveal things. IDK but even if Serena did kiss ash on the lips, there was very little reaction. Serena's face indicates both that she did and that she didn't, and so does Ash's face. Both are incredibly ambiguous, which was intentionally done so people could still talk about it. It all boils down to perspective: If you're a vehement anti-Amourshipper or at least neutral, then Serena didn't kiss Ash or made some contact with Ash. If you're neutral, then it's possible that Serena made some contact with Ash, kissed Ash anywhere or didn't kiss Ash. If you're an Amourshipper, then Serena kissed Ash on the lips or kissed Ash somewhere else. I mean a kiss between two main characters is a huge deal and can spark a ship to set on full sail. It's taken a lot more seriously than kisses involving side characters. That's why they 'censored' it to get people thinking and making up theories and amongst other reasons, aside from cultural aversion of showing kisses on the lips. So if say, Dawn kissed Ash anywhere, the fanbase would be exploding right now. I don't know, if Ash showed that he was kissed, he would have felt abashed or sheepish but he didn't. I mean, he felt that way when Aria danced with him, so if that got him feeling embarrassed a bit just over a dance with her, who knows how Ash would react if he were kissed by Serena. I mean, he isn't completely dense in some way, kind of like how Dawn is. But Serena in that episode didn't confess to Ash, as many people would assume just by face value by taking things literally or try to inject Amourshipping into Serena's speech. It's the cultural context that suggests that Serena sees Ash as a great person (Ash is her 'goal') and wants to be a great person just like Ash (saying that she wants to be a more attractive female/woman like how Ash says he wants to be a stronger man/male). Doesn't mean she has to emulate Ash in almost every way or still sees Ash as her crush. I don't have to reiterate this, but Serena has masked or concealed her feelings for Ash for most of the series. So while she did receive some character development, I honestly doubt that she received too much character development that quickly within just one episode. Not everything involving both Serena and Ash has to do with Amourshipping. I think my perspective and philosophy on this issue is that Serena, as well as Dawn have more room left to grow and develop as characters. Serena still has some obvious flaws but Dawn seems as if she erased her flaws but she could have some other flaws that aren't noticeable at first glance. So if Serena actually did kiss Ash, she won't have the need to grow and develop anymore, so it makes little sense to continue her story. That's why I feel in that scene, since Serena didn't confess her feelings to Ash, she did not fully intend to kiss Ash. So Serena is well aware that she wants to develop a bond with Ash when she knows that she hasn't established a strong bond with him yet. As for the physicality of the kiss happening, Ash isn't completely stationary like a wall, the elevator is moving in a backwards motion, and if Serena did lean forward and tiptoeing, she would have fell if Ash didn't help prevent her from losing her balance, represented by Ash moving his feet. Try tiptoeing and leaning the upper part of your body forward simultaneously, while keeping your feet/legs together, not up against a wall but with another person with the same height some distance away. If Serena made complete lip contact with Ash, she would have had one foot forward to maintain balance, as she was tiptoeing AND possibly leaning forward. Unless if one explains with 'anime physics' but nothing in the scene suggests any form of anime physics. The moment when Serena tiptoed and possibly leaned forward was shortly before Ash had to adjust himself, in the form of moving his feet. If Serena really kissed Ash, then Ash would have remained completely stationary but he didn't. He clearly moved otherwise, he would have fell alongside Serena. Clemont and Bonnie were about two meters away from Ash, Serena was about 30 cm away from Ash. If Clemont and Bonnie have seen the kiss actually happening, they have to see the sides of both Ash and Serena's faces but Serena's head was obscured by the back of Ash's head. Thus they could not have seen what had actually happened between Ash and Serena even though it's implied that both of their faces were close to one another. Ash's reaction is also another indicator, while Amourshippers would claim glossy eyes as a 'hint', but he showed very little reaction when he had been feeling sheepish and bashful at times whenever he was kissed or had to do something with slight romantic connotations. As long as they are still trolling people by hiding the entire, fullest details of the SM series, there is reason why to take everything in the series with a grain of salt even after the 'last episode'. It's strange that there's a difference in between how Serena acts versus how Amourshippers want Serena to act. I mean Amourshippers believe that Serena wants to kiss Ash and will kiss Ash, I say that Serena wanted to make some form of face contact with Ash but failed to do so for a variety of reasons. It can very well be possible that Serena wanted to kiss Ash at first but decided to pull away at the last second, whether it was involuntary or by her likely conscious decision not to kiss Ash. I mean, people actually thought Serena was going to dance with Ash but even though she wanted to and had the chance to, she lost the opportunity at the last minute. But it is equally possible that Serena didn't kiss Ash with her mouth but rather moved her face to touch Ash's mouth like as if she would make Ash kiss her on the cheek. It's also possible that Serena could have just hugged Ash if she just leaned in as a nod to their first meeting. Why else did Ash had to adjust his feet?
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Post by Unarmed Civilian/pokemongeof on Nov 3, 2016 14:25:06 GMT
But it is equally possible that Serena didn't kiss Ash with her mouth but rather moved her face to touch Ash's mouth like as if she would make Ash kiss her on the cheek. It's also possible that Serena could have just hugged Ash if she just leaned in as a nod to their first meeting. Why else did Ash had to adjust his feet? The first point is actually an interesting point; it would certainly explain how Serena acted all embarrassed (as she got a "kiss" from her crush) and why Ash was so confused. IMO, one side of me says there was no kiss, another says a kiss on the forehead, and the other is saying a kiss on the lips. This is one of the most controversial moments in anime that I have had to discuss for a while!
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Post by IceArceus on Nov 3, 2016 16:15:29 GMT
As for the physicality of the kiss happening, Ash isn't completely stationary like a wall, the elevator is moving in a backwards motion, and if Serena did lean forward and tiptoeing, she would have fell if Ash didn't help prevent her from losing her balance, represented by Ash moving his feet. Try tiptoeing and leaning the upper part of your body forward simultaneously, while keeping your feet/legs together, not up against a wall but with another person with the same height some distance away. If Serena made complete lip contact with Ash, she would have had one foot forward to maintain balance, as she was tiptoeing AND possibly leaning forward. Unless if one explains with 'anime physics' but nothing in the scene suggests any form of anime physics. The moment when Serena tiptoed and possibly leaned forward was shortly before Ash had to adjust himself, in the form of moving his feet. If Serena really kissed Ash, then Ash would have remained completely stationary but he didn't. He clearly moved otherwise, he would have fell alongside Serena. I've watched the clip multiple times. Ash's feet didn't even step back. His foot shifted very slightly to the side, almost horizontally. It doesn't suggest a massive amount of weight on him. You don't even have to do it against a wall. Tiptoe, keep your feet straight, lean forward BRIEFLY (as in the anime) and you won't even lose balance. Yes, you can keep both feet together. It IS possible, especially if you're a lightweight girl like Serena. My mouth barely touched the wall in the experiment (because Ash isn't a stationary wall. Yes. I do know how to conduct experiments). You don't have to be an Amourshipper to think Serena kissed him on the lips (or on the cheek, close to the lips). You just have to be open to other interpretations or yknow, put a lot of weight on physics to think so, because I can safely say that applying physics to that scene DOESN'T confirm a kiss, but it rules out stumbling.
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