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Post by IceArceus on Nov 2, 2016 12:00:41 GMT
The "You're my goal" is not a big deal. I agree with satohika that the phrase means to become like him since he's been a role model, an admirable character to her. The best example I can think of is Naruto's clash with Sasuke at the five kage summit. Naruto admits to Sauke that when they're were young, Naruto admired and was jealous of him at the same time, Naruto's reasoning for their rivalry: "You were my goal."* *May or may not be exact wording...* I personally think it IS a big deal. So let's take the definition satohika used then, that "you're my goal" means to become like him. I STILL think the ideal Pokegirl would have to be more autonomous and want to become the best version of HERSELF instead of following someone else. I have an anime example as well. It's in LL SS where the idol group Aqours want to follow in the steps of muse, but in the last episode of the series realised muse succeeded because they weren't following anyone and they were doing their own thing and so Aqours decided to break away from trying to be like muse. So even in cultural context, where "you're my goal" means "I want to be like you", I personally still can't relate to that attitude or go along with it, which is why it remains the determining factor of me disliking that scene overall.
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Kanto Champion
Posts: 59
Shipping Allegiance: Pearlshipping
MBTI: ISFP
Badass Punchline: I just did!
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Post by Amsiulx on Nov 2, 2016 13:14:57 GMT
The "You're my goal" is not a big deal. I agree with satohika that the phrase means to become like him since he's been a role model, an admirable character to her. The best example I can think of is Naruto's clash with Sasuke at the five kage summit. Naruto admits to Sauke that when they're were young, Naruto admired and was jealous of him at the same time, Naruto's reasoning for their rivalry: "You were my goal."* *May or may not be exact wording...* I personally think it IS a big deal. So let's take the definition satohika used then, that "you're my goal" means to become like him. I STILL think the ideal Pokegirl would have to be more autonomous and want to become the best version of HERSELF instead of following someone else. I have an anime example as well. It's in LL SS where the idol group Aqours want to follow in the steps of muse, but in the last episode of the series realised muse succeeded because they weren't following anyone and they were doing their own thing and so Aqours decided to break away from trying to be like muse. So even in cultural context, where "you're my goal" means "I want to be like you", I personally still can't relate to that attitude or go along with it, which is why it remains the determining factor of me disliking that scene overall. I agree with IceArceus , on this one.. I mean, Serena started her journey mainly to escape beign a Rhyhorn racer and to follow Ash around, we can agree on that, right? At the end of it, she realized that she really enjoyed making people happy with her performances at Pokémon Showcases, and decided to become better at it, taking her separate way from the group (not even taking the offer of the mentor who trained the person who was her goal, that's HUGE progress) . THAT'S why the last episode dissapointed me so much, she basically reverted to beign head over heels for Ash and even go so far of saying something like "You are my goal". Ok, the problem to me with that little speech, is that she is once again only focusing to improve herself FOR Ash not BECAUSE OF Ash. I mean in her farewell episode, she seemed to have move on a little on her crush on Ash and started to focus more on her dream and future, I was starting to like her but then, ¨*DUN* Fanservice timeee!!! and it killed the little like I had acquired for Serena. Other people view it differently, and yes It could be me overreacting or because of my Serena-hate but it just didn't work for me. In the end, she entered the series with little more than Fanservice and she left with Fanservice. Regarding the Naruto example, I don't think they are that similar, I think Naruto's goal was more "To be someone like Sasuke, more powerful, more popular, and more loved". Remember, that Naruto himself, in it's first encounter with Sasuke in Shippuden says somthing like "How can someone who wasn't even capable of saving his best friend become Hokage? Don't you think so, Sasuke?" , wich makes me think Naruto's goal always was to become Hokage, saving Sasuke or becoming more like Sasuke, were just mediums to the objective
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Post by satohika on Nov 2, 2016 19:20:01 GMT
The 'you're my goal' part shouldn't be taken at face value. It has at least several meanings and implications based on the context. So I don't think what she said was a confession at all after taking into account the entire speech with Ash, because it's ridden with so much context. The show itself is tailored towards a Japanese audience so they would know the meaning based on the contextual clues given. It's also why Pearl is heavily ridden with context clues that the relationship would be implied and underneath the surface.
She said 'anata wa watashi no mokuhyou'. Here are a few things I find suspicious the way she said it.
Whenever she says 'you' when speaking to Ash, she usually uses his name 'Satoshi'. In Japanese, when you know a person's name, title, profession, relation or whatever, you shouldn't be using the word 'anata' as it while it is polite, it can come across as being rude.
Her usage of 'you' means she doesn't know Ash well enough and wants to know him better. Serena and Ash don't have a strong bond like between Ash and Dawn. In Serena's mind, she wants to barge into Ash's personal space, she wants to know him better but feels that he's closing off his real emotions and thoughts to her and everyone in Kalos. As if he were hiding something he couldn't tell from Serena. Hence this was a nod to the song 'Candy Girl'.
Serena idolizes Ash and sees him as her goal because she wants to be like him. And the reason why she did become a performer was because of Ash. The performer goal and her crush aren't mutually exclusive, they're more or less interconnected. If it weren't for Ash, she would have been stuck doing something she doesn't want to do. That's why Ash was more like a breath of fresh air to her, that when she went on a journey with Ash, she began to have a taste of traveling with him. Dawn by comparison after journeying with Ash grew more attached to Ash, so you guys can't claim the 'independence' argument in regards to both of them. At the end of DP, Dawn wanted to travel to Kanto with Ash and really wanted to be with him, so in a sense she became more like Serena. Compared to the start of the series, when she was a lot more independent. Just the opposite route as Serena going off to Hoenn on her own to experience traveling on her own. Serena saying that she'll be an more attractive woman the next time they meet is analogous to Ash saying that he'll become stronger. It's sort of how they want to become a better person. In a cultural context, men value their strength and women value their 'miryoku' or attractiveness to become a better person. It doesn't mean that Serena is confessing to Ash. Taking that into account, Serena didn't kiss Ash because she still acts the same as usual. But at the same time, Serena's story isn't finished yet just by their conversation. If it were another show, it'd have the same meaning that I was talking about. I mean why else would Serena go off on her own to Hoenn? What she implied was that because in Kalos, Ash didn't rely on anyone else but himself, so Serena idolizes the fact at how Ash is so independent. If she were really as attached to Ash, she should have went to Kanto.
About LL Sunshine, the one thing that pissed me off was that in almost every episode they made a reference to mu's. If they want to be better than mu's then why bother mentioning them? I still don't like Aquors except for the obviously chuuni girl, mu's is a lot better but they 'graduated' which sucks.
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Post by IceArceus on Nov 2, 2016 20:37:16 GMT
satohika THAT'S my point. With LLSS At the end the realised they COULDN'T go on chasing muse and that Aqours must be autonomous and do their own thing. They didn't want to be BETTER than muse at first, they wanted to be LIKE muse. When they kept struggling they realised they couldn't try and be like muse. They had to do their own thing and be Aqours. THAT is development. And THAT is the point I was obviously making. I personally think the fact muse wanted to stay true to their image as school idols and disbanded when they graduated was the right thing to do. Serena idolizes Ash and sees him as her goal because she wants to be like him. Yeah, yeah, you've said the face value thing many times and that wasn't the thing I was solely addressing. Just to get things straight we've moved past "you're my goal" in a literal sense. It was essentially what you said above. Serena idolising Ash and wanting to be like him. THAT is the thing my principles disagree with. Her speech clearly implied that she idolised Ash and wanted to be like him. I can't respect the idea of idolising the person you're romantically interested in and wanting to BE LIKE THEM. I personally strive to make my own path and become the best version for myself, and be doing it for my own sake, even if I have someone I'm interested in. People will see the kiss scene as positive or negative because of their principles. Mine mean I see it negatively overall. The one thing I did see positively was her bravery to actually do something. And I think it's alright for different people to like or dislike the scene according to their own values.
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Post by satohika on Nov 2, 2016 21:05:51 GMT
Serena idolizes Ash and sees him as her goal because she wants to be like him. Yeah, yeah, you've said the face value thing many times and that wasn't the thing I was solely addressing. Just to get things straight we've moved past "you're my goal" in a literal sense. It was essentially what you said above. Serena idolising Ash and wanting to be like him. THAT is the thing my principles disagree with. Her speech clearly implied that she idolised Ash and wanted to be like him. I can't respect the idea of idolising the person you're romantically interested in and wanting to BE LIKE THEM. I personally strive to make my own path and become the best version for myself, and be doing it for my own sake, even if I have someone I'm interested in. People will see the kiss scene as positive or negative because of their principles. Mine mean I see it negatively overall. The one thing I did see positively was her bravery to actually do something. And I think it's alright for different people to like or dislike the scene according to their own values. I mean the Ash and Serena fight scene, Serena basically confessed about what she thinks of Ash to Bonnie and Clemont, while never stating that she was in love with Ash. The thing about Serena's performer goal is that it's intertwined with her crush on Ash, they aren't mutually exclusive, they're connected in a synergistic way. If she didn't go on a journey with Ash she would have never found it at all and still remained stuck being a Rhyhorn racer. Ash is the main reason why she decides to become a performer, going back to the 'you are my goal' part, because Ash represents a lot of things (that she admires and likes about him) to her. So I'm arguing that what Serena said to Ash wasn't a love confession at all, and she has been deliberately hiding or masking her feelings about Ash for most of the series. It's just that other characters picked up on her crush and teasing her about it. But she never stated outright to anyone that she was in love with him, just that she 'admires' him or doesn't deny her crush as a response to being teased. So I'm analyzing this in the context as if Amourshipping didn't exist. What she said to Ash doesn't mean anything in terms of her feelings for Ash because she didn't confess to him. If it were another show where two characters had that same moment as if between Ash and Serena, it would be pretty platonic with little or no romantic connotation at all. I don't think Serena kissed Ash at all. Ash had to move his feet and Serena was tiptoeing (and not leaning forward), considering that they're the same height. If she did kiss Ash, why was she embarrassed and thanking Ash? It doesn't make sense, because if she was so confident in kissing Ash, she wouldn't have blushed and thanked Ash. She basically stumbled, lost her balance, Ash grabbed her arms as she was about to fall and when the escalator started moving back down again, she put her arms behind her back. Considering Clemont and Bonnie only saw the back of Ash's head, but not looking at Serena's face. They must have a different view than Serena and Ash because they were at least 2 meters away from Ash so they didn't witness what was really going on as Ash went forward.
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Post by Unarmed Civilian/pokemongeof on Nov 2, 2016 21:14:40 GMT
Quite a profound statement IceArceus. I agree with that idea.
I realize I like Amourshipping in an aesthetic sense. I mean, you would feel for the girl trying to get the guy, doing all she can to grab his attention, but it has to be done correctly.
One character that follows this guideline is Taiga Aisaka from Toradora. Incredibly outward, opinionated and hot-headed girl always turns into a clumsy mess around her love, Kitamura. However, unlike Serena, Taiga does not change character in order to get closer. She changes BECAUSE OF HIM, not for him.
Looking at it now, I think it was intentional that Serena and her love are flawed. It setups an insanely popular ship, while simultaneously setting up for (hopefully) a much more complex plot involving romance (Hopefully this will be the case in Sun and Moon with the hopeful return of Dawn and Serena).
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Post by IceArceus on Nov 2, 2016 21:18:37 GMT
I'll address the tiptoeing. I've solved it. It's no longer a valid point against Serena kissing Ash. I carried out the experiment as follows.
I stood in front of the wall with my face up against it. I marked the spot where my mouth was touching lightly with a pencil. Then I stepped back about 30cm. If I simply lean forward, my mouth falls short of where the pencil mark was. I had to tiptoe to reach the mark again.
I think her thank you was thanking him for "everything".
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Post by satohika on Nov 2, 2016 21:30:08 GMT
I'll address the tiptoeing. I've solved it. It's no longer a valid point against Serena kissing Ash. I carried out the experiment as follows. I stood in front of the wall with my face up against it. I marked the spot where my mouth was touching lightly with a pencil. Then I stepped back about 30cm. If I simply lean forward, my mouth falls short of where the pencil mark was. I had to tiptoe to reach the mark again. But she was tiptoeing straight, not leaning forward. If she leaned forward, she would have made contact with his lips. Whether the case is, they are of the same height and her mouth was far away from his lips. The escalator started moving just as leaned in. So their faces were close to each other but didn't make contact. Ash also positioned himself slightly further away than he was the moment Serena leaned in. Why else would she be blushing and feel embarrassed? Because if she did feel so confident in kissing Ash, she wouldn't feel that way afterwards. I've been rewatching this scene over and over, but while it may give the easy impression that Serena kissed Ash, I don't think she actually did. She attempted to, but her lips didn't make contact with his. I mean Serena was on a moving escalator as she was doing it. The experiment implies that the escalator stopped or wasn't moving. Serena isn't a very athletically agile person, she's a lot less athletic than Dawn is. And Ash had little or no reaction to what Serena did at all.
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Post by IceArceus on Nov 2, 2016 21:33:34 GMT
satohika I only had to lean my upper body forward. My legs were straight, as per the video. Serena's kiss was also put into slow mo. It was probably really quick in "reality". The distance between where it started and ended would have been negligible if it was a quick peck.
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Post by satohika on Nov 2, 2016 21:35:51 GMT
satohika I only had to lean my upper body forward. My legs were straight, as per the video. But that would imply the escalator wasn't moving but she did on a moving escalator because the moment she leaned in, the escalator was moving to the back. And Ash had to position himself slightly to the back. Serena basically lost her balance and stumbled and Ash had to hold her in place so she doesn't fall. It was due to the wrong timing or she chose not to kiss Ash.
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